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Nan
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Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Jan 10th, 2017 at 11:23am
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Anything going on or nothing at all?

Thanks.
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #1 - Jan 11th, 2017 at 1:04am
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As far as I am aware the owners meeting has been postponed from November to March. Then it will be decision time; I believe the renovation committee are hoping that this will be the last meeting and that things can be finally decided on.
It was all decided on previously of course but a lot of people are not happy to pay as much as we were being asked to, this is what I've heard.
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #2 - Jan 11th, 2017 at 3:35am
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There is also the small matter of the rigged tender with all its implications.
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #3 - Jan 11th, 2017 at 6:46am
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I'm sure there are many opinions on the reasons for delay  Wink
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #4 - Jan 15th, 2017 at 3:34am
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Hello.
We are looking at moving to the Greens complex. Could someone let us know what the cost to owners is at present for the renovations?  I know it might change after the next meeting but it might give us a bit of an idea.
Thank you Smiley
  
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Ger
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #5 - Jan 15th, 2017 at 5:22am
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These figures come from confirmation of resolutions at the last meeting.  I make no apology for typographical errors.  I am reading them sideways from a pdf document on my computer.

Blocks 1-3
Units A & F  173,489
"       B & E  109,852
"       C & D  219,704

Blocks 4-6
Units A & F  121,709
"       B & E  147,871
"       C & D  197,163

Blocks 7-9
Units A & H  119,363
"       B & G  136,415
"       C & F  170,519
"       D & E  153,467
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #6 - Jan 15th, 2017 at 6:25am
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Thank you so much for this information!!
  
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Nan
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #7 - Jan 18th, 2017 at 8:24am
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Well, when i moved into Greens 6 years ago, the agency told me that the renovation would take place shortly.
6 years later, i still don't get the opportunity to spend that money.  Huh

So, i suggest you not to take this as a concern for moving in, who knows how many more years we need to wait... Lips Sealed


JMLinHK wrote on Jan 15th, 2017 at 6:25am:
Thank you so much for this information!!

  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #8 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 1:17am
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Ha ha! Exactly!
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #9 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 1:42am
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I agree!

It has been suggested before - though I don't know how possible this would be - that all nine blocks of the Greens are just too huge as one entity and that if they were divided into three blocks of three buildings the problem would be solved.
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #10 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 3:12am
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I have thought this too, why not separate the renovation in to 3  projects, 3 x blocks of 3? This way there would be less people to please, smaller committees to handle things and the whole thing could be much easier to manage.
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #11 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 8:14am
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Didn't they handle the previous renovations this way?
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #12 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 9:37am
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I wondered if there are other villages in DB with similar issues? I come to understand most other villages had their renovation done quickly once every 5 or so years but that had not happened in the Greens for more than 15 years. I am surprised because buildings need maintenance to the exterior wall to make it safe for the residents.

Can we learn something from the Greens? Do they know something that the rest of us don't? Have we all been paying excessively or the Greens just being prudent?

Anybody with information care to share please?

  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #13 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 9:41am
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BH wrote on Jan 19th, 2017 at 9:37am:
I wondered if there are other villages in DB with similar issues? I come to understand most other villages had their renovation done quickly once every 5 or so years but that had not happened in the Greens for more than 15 years. I am surprised because buildings need maintenance to the exterior wall to make it safe for the residents.

Can we learn something from the Greens? Do they know something that the rest of us don't? Have we all been paying excessively or the Greens just being prudent?

Anybody with information care to share please?




Well, all I know is that I have been in DB for 9 years and 4 of those were spent staring right at the council building of Glasgow...except that they are worth billions.

It is CRAZY, that investment in such a potentially fantastic asset has been allowed to fester.
Cheapo landlords who don't see the value in the renovation. Sad.
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #14 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 9:49am
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JojoS wrote on Jan 19th, 2017 at 8:14am:
Didn't they handle the previous renovations this way?

Only those with prehistoric knowledge would be able to answer that one.  Well before the time of most of us.
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #15 - Jan 20th, 2017 at 12:53am
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I have heard that many landlords of the Greens, having bought in particular the smaller flats for investment, do not live in HK, they are overseas.
Therefore it took a long time for meetings to reach a quorum of owners for voting on the renovation.
When it was eventually sorted owners were astounded at the cost, especially compared to what other villages have paid.
But it has been such a long time since Greens was spruced so I guess it stands to reason that costs are higher, as more bits of concrete have dropped off as the years have gone by.
I have also heard that some senior residents do not want/are unable to pay the high cost.
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #16 - Jan 20th, 2017 at 2:30am
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Absentee landlords together with senior residents unwilling or unable to pay the high cost is a toxic mix.  All the more reason to think outside the box for this renovation and divide up the Greens into three blocks of three.
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #17 - Jan 20th, 2017 at 3:02am
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Agree
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #18 - Jan 20th, 2017 at 6:11am
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Peninsula Village had issues getting the quorum because that includes Coastline, Caperidge (Upper/Lower), Crestmont,  and  6! different high  rises.  Once we got the required number of attendees everyone seemed perfectly happy to  get Crestmont  renovated.  I think it's probably a net positive that we are a mix of high and low rises.  I imagine the low rises will push for renovations as we see the value and can probably afford when it's our turn and that will help get the votes.  Meanwhile, we will push when it's not our dime too.  The Greens you're either in or out if that makes sense.  But the issue for us was the quorum to begin with.  3rd time was the charm.
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #19 - Jan 22nd, 2017 at 7:55am
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I think from economical point of view, dividing the village into 3 projects will for sure further increase the unit cost for each flat, but in exchange of higher efficiency, so personal i don't mind it, i think it's worth trying.

But i think at the end of the day, the key issues will still be the huge difference of the cost tolerance and standard tolerance.

For the cost, I understand some people might find it quite expensive to spend 100-250K for the renovation, but they need to see it's been 15 years since last renovation, plus the potential value/rental increase after that investment, and of course our own experience and mood living in a nicer environment. I think the can be partially solved by providing some financial solutions like low interest loan and etc.

As for the difference of living standard, it seems that some residences, most elderly, doesn't think Greens is too old and urgently requires a renovation with such cost, and they tend to think it's still quite nice to live in. Personally I can't agree with that, and i have no clue how to solve that.

Just my thoughts.
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #20 - Jan 22nd, 2017 at 9:33am
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Ger wrote on Jan 19th, 2017 at 9:49am:
JojoS wrote on Jan 19th, 2017 at 8:14am:
Didn't they handle the previous renovations this way?

Only those with prehistoric knowledge would be able to answer that one.  Well before the time of most of us.


I'll try to remember that Smiley

The external walls were "repaired" - some say damaged - at different ages - only 7 years after the buildings were built a few years apart.

Greenvale village is "one building" -it does not have 3 separate sub-dmcs

The "sub-dmcs" for 4-6 and 7-9 are actually sub-sub dmcs to blocks 1-3

It would be the same as asking owners of one of the 9 high rises only to "renovate".

That having been said I haven't noticed a concentration of "elderly" or "poor" on a phase base or in the Greens vs other high rises

Problem is that the prices quoted are "ridiculous" by the consultant's own admission and the renovation working group was right to report it to the Competition Commission

Now I do understand the  time pressure they were under but it was wrong of the renovation working group to nevertheless put the proposal to the owners and only mention the prices were "on the high side"

And that having been said I would not have awarded the contract in one go for the 9 buildings - it's not manageable for the renovation working group.And if it goes wrong - and it does sometimes  - there is no turning back. Baby steps. They would still be huge if you talk about gutting the buildings

And that having been said - to a large extent the owners in the Greens have a bit themselves to blame.

We have a weak VOC - nobody interested in what happens and an exhausted renovation working group pushed by "artificial"deadlines like AGM's and a few yelling owner's who prefer to just that : yell a bit

And than unscupulous people have you for breakfast
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #21 - Jan 25th, 2017 at 1:04pm
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What does "prises are high" actually mean?


A little bit more, 50% more or "ridiculous" multiples?

For those who are wearing glasses or prefer a hardopy

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9Mob2S8ZJrlV3lYcXlUTkloZ0E/view?usp=sharing

PTE stands for Pre Tender Estimate

The Pre Tender Estimate was prepared by a supposedly reputable Quantity Surveyor based on their database of returned tenders for similar projects

BRIDGEWATER & COULTON LTD

  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #22 - Jan 25th, 2017 at 1:07pm
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #23 - Jan 27th, 2017 at 7:27am
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Now if you look at the prices from your Quantity Surveyor - Bridgewater & Coulton and those of the (lowest  Cool tenderers any Tender Evaluation Committee would have

1.thrown the thing in the waste paper bucket

or

2. or asked the QS for an explanation: maybe the tender was not clear, maybe the tenderers did not have adequate time to prepare a proper return - it's possible but given that all we do is erect scaffolding, paint, tile and plumb a little - unlikely. A handyman could have given proper prices

So why did neither happen?

This report is dated 11th June 2016 and sent to CM and  the Renovation Working Group for "appropriate action" - like when?

The AGM was held 18th June 2016




You have to bear in mind

1.That the members of the Renovation Working Group are just owners. They have a full time job, family and social obligations like every body else. They are not full time employees. And though they are all professionals - none are experts in Renovation.

2. That organizing the AGM itself involves a lot of time and effort. Writing letters, preparing voting forms, preparing the presentation and last but not least make sure you get a quorum.

The only full time employee and client as an agent on behalf of all the Owners is City Management.

And they let it go



And to that extent we should all be grateful to the members of the Concern Group
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #24 - Jan 29th, 2017 at 9:35am
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When there is a difference between the market prices based on the database from the Quantity Surveyor(QS) and those submitted by the lowest tenderer(s) it is his job to sit together with the tenderer and try to find out item by item the reason why (beyond pure greed or possible collusion) there is such a difference. Something technical maybe or a misunderstanding of the tender document. Maybe a clerical error on the QS's side?

Let's see how well he discharged himself of that duty. After all that is what we paid him a lot of money for.

(the tenders were opened and given to him on 29th April 2016 - so one and a half month's time before he submitted this (16th June)



This is the report for which you paid and which each owner can go and consult in CM office. Not sure if anybody did.

Note that at no time the Quantity Surveyor sat together with the lowest tenderer(s) face to face even though the AGM was fast approaching.

When time is up you don't write letters to the technical consultant who has been employed under a different contract anyway
« Last Edit: Jan 29th, 2017 at 10:45am by vice_chair »  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #25 - Feb 9th, 2017 at 8:51am
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Let's see if replying to the thread makes it re-appear  Wink

ETA: yep, it worked  Smiley
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #26 - Feb 9th, 2017 at 9:33pm
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Full of admiration, Lace.  Well done!  Cheesy
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #27 - Feb 11th, 2017 at 8:58am
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Is this Greens renovation project still festering........... and dying a slow death as it it did some years ago?

Just as GER wrote in January " Absentee landlords together with senior residents unwilling or unable to pay the high cost is a toxic mix.  All the more reason to think outside the box for this renovation and divide up the Greens into three blocks of three." 

If I owned a flat in the Greens I would think even further "out of the box" and get the hell out of the investment or move before your home falls down.  If the buildings have got to the stage where lumps of concrete and mosaic tiles are falling off from a height, you should be aware of the civil damages owners could all face if someones is killed or injured by falling debris.

We had this problem back in Parkvale some 13 years ago, Non-resident landlords were determined to undermine and repeatedly stall the  renovation process. Eventually at an a village AGM I walked to the front of the meeting and tipped a bag of tiles and lumps of concrete (which had fallen off the buildings) onto the floor, pointed at the trouble makers and threatened to take legal action against them personally if a piece of debris fell on anyone. It was at that meeting that we forced the tender to be accepted,

You can read within this academic paper how in 1999 the owners of one building in Jordan Road faced civil damages for killing one person and injuring 16 when a concrete canopy broke off the building  and fell on them.

http://hub.hku.hk/bitstream/10722/48896/1/b37937868.pdf
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #28 - Feb 20th, 2017 at 12:42pm
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SayNoToPrivateCars wrote on Feb 11th, 2017 at 8:58am:
If the buildings have got to the stage where lumps of concrete and mosaic tiles are falling off from a height, you should be aware of the civil damages owners could all face if someones is killed or injured by falling debris.


Scaremongering is indeed one way to to get thinghs done Smiley

For those who do not remember or were not here there were two villages in Discovery Bay where it rained mosaic tiles during a storm. Parkvale and Hillgrove. Nobody got harmed. A mosaic tile weighs next to nothing. They float down

By the time they got to a renovation most of the tiles were gone. Poor workmanship. Some would have called it hidden defects. That didn't occur to the eager beavers I guess.

That is certainly not the case in the Greens.

Lumps of concrete falling down? Can you cite a case and cause in the Greens?

Certainly not "systemic"

And it doesn't help if you refer to an "unauthorized" building works canopy. Of course the individual owner is responsible if it falls down


But let me ask you a question since you were on the renovation working group

Would you have submitted something like this to the owners?

VivienDB wrote on Feb 1st, 2017 at 8:54am:
greenland2009 wrote on Jan 31st, 2017 at 4:41am:
A)external wall - around 22% over the estimate
B)ground floor lobby work including life interiors- 2.7 times of the estimate
C)renovate typical floor lobbies- 1.3 times of the estimate



you mean like 270% and 130% more than estimate?




  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #29 - Mar 2nd, 2017 at 11:36am
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We have an update (if you didn't receive it please contact CM)

Well actually- the same as 8 months ago

There admittedly was some time pressure before the last AGM but 8 months should have been sufficient to check some of the huge price differences no? - Frequently asked question

  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #30 - Mar 3rd, 2017 at 5:45am
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figures dont lie and it's amazing what you can do with an E in A-Level art and a twisted imagination

1. If you take away the huge overpricing on the optional items- the complete internal renovation (individual lobbies and ground floor lobbies) the cost based on market prices from the QS is only 41 million

We have 25 million in reserves roughly 10.000 MU so for a mid size flat that would cost HK$ 13500

We would have to add a bit of those preliminaries and consultancy and CM renumerations.

But there are potential further savings too

*renovating the lifts by replacing good quality Japanese stainless steel with dubious stainless steel from China as proposed is a bad idea. Fix the missing tiles with matching stainless steel and a nice new floor in homogeneous tiles should do just fine

* we should not import tiles from Italy as proposed. There are plenty of Italian firms who have production facilities over just over the border in China. And we should not use granite tiles. If our granite tiles look a bit dull it is because the cleaning contractor cleans them with water. Again a good quality homogeneous tile (not glazed for the floor please)like in other internal renovations in DB will look just as good and solve the problem

* And maybe we should just fix the missing doors on the mailboxes instead of replacing the whole thing lock stock and barrel.

* And maybe we should leave the fire doors as they are. There are unfortunately a lot of individual flats which still have the the original doors. And if ever the need arises tumenescent strips can be retrofitted. You don't have to trow away a good hardwood door.

If Well did one thing well it was the internal designs. Cost a lot of time and money and would make a real difference.

And if Well insists on huge profits beyond market rates we'll just have to fnd somebody else - we should have done that 8 months ago

And no it's not "urgent".
« Last Edit: Mar 3rd, 2017 at 7:13am by vice_chair »  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #31 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 11:21am
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So what happened at the meeting today?
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #32 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 2:33pm
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80% voted for to void the renovation plan approved in last meeting. So the renovation is off for now. Not sure how and when it's gonna restarted. Not optimistic if we can get better plan with next VOC and working group. Sounds like the concern group doesn't have real plan, based on what they said in the meeting today.

Not too surprised to see the result of the vote. But quite sad to see only 28% of the owners attended the meeting today. It's quite unlikely we could get it done properly in near future without owners caring about it. Quite curious how other villages' situation looks like.

Goldielocks wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 11:21am:
So what happened at the meeting today?
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #33 - Mar 13th, 2017 at 11:35am
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Back to square 1.
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #34 - Mar 13th, 2017 at 1:01pm
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I hope I am wrong but from what I heard, it sounded that there is a sizeable number of residents especially the elderly folks who just do NOT want any renovation at all.

The lack of a sinking fund, had resulted in requiring a huge payment for this renovation which apparently cost more than $100,000 for every unit.

I wondered why other villages never fail to have their village renovation carried but NOT apparently so in the GREENs.


  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #35 - Mar 13th, 2017 at 7:12pm
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BH wrote on Mar 13th, 2017 at 1:01pm:
The lack of a sinking fund, had resulted in requiring a huge payment for this renovation which apparently cost more than $100,000 for every unit.

More than $200,000 for many.

  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #36 - Mar 14th, 2017 at 12:49am
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The scope need to be redefined and including all the necessary work. Look at Taikooshing & City One, both properties are older than Greenvale village. They both keeping the external tiles rather than painting over. Painting over is not the only method but may be preferrable by HKR.  For the building entrance, replacement of broken letter box  are essential & repair broken glass tiles & etc. Do we need to completely replace everything in the building entrance is questionable. Replacement of all wall & floor tiles in each floor are  not necessary. Simplify the scope will save cost  & renovation period.   Do the essential work rather than  nice to have. 

Most important are to invite competition from more contractors externally rather just those handful with experience in DB. To avoid bid rigging.
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #37 - Mar 14th, 2017 at 3:17am
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greenland2009 wrote on Mar 14th, 2017 at 12:49am:
Replacement of all wall & floor tiles in each floor are  not necessary.

This is a shining example of what does not need to be done.  Little wrong with the lobbies that a good clean-up won't solve, rather than cosmetic work of who-knows-what standard.  As my mother used to say, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
  
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Ger
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #38 - Apr 7th, 2017 at 10:03pm
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Article in today's Hong Kong Free Press on rampant bid-rigging in Hong Kong.  Consultant for Greenvale renovation, Wealthy Gate, is mentioned:

https://www.hongkongfp.com/2017/04/08/rampant-bid-rigging-housing-repair-project...
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #39 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 2:42am
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Apologies for digging it out again, but if anyone knows if there's any news about the Greenvale Renovation?
Another 6 months have gone since last meeting...... Huh

Nan wrote on Jan 10th, 2017 at 11:23am:
Anything going on or nothing at all?

Thanks.
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #40 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 6:01am
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Details will be in mail boxes when decided on.
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #41 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 6:37am
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I just don't understand why can't they use more efficient and lower cost channel to keep people updated more timely.

Sending a group email/msg or posting on an online forum every few weeks is so much more efficient and cheaper then printing thousands of pieces of paper and hire people to put them in mail boxes.

Can't figure it out.

chair wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 6:01am:
Details will be in mail boxes when decided on.
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #42 - May 9th, 2018 at 2:23am
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hello folks,

We just moved to Greenvale as tenants and have been hearing about renovation discussions and seems they have been going on for a while? Is there any news on when it will start and how long it will last with the extent of work to be carried out? How can we get detailed info about it?
  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #43 - May 9th, 2018 at 4:57am
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I don't expect anything to happen within the next 10 years or so.....   Angry
Now since the so called "Concerned Group" voided the decision of doing renovations we haven't heard anything.
Due to their actions the owners are probably going to end up paying more than what the quote was for the previous renovation due to all the small emergency repairs that needs to be done. Also, the longer we wait the more expensive it will be.
Tiles are falling off for instance, that is why we had the beautiful blue tents outside the entrances.
You can always call Mr Wilson on 22383604 apparently he has all the answers on the clever VOC team ideas

  
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Re: Any updates of Greenvale Renovation?
Reply #44 - May 9th, 2018 at 11:17am
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I just noticed those blue tents are removed(not sure temporary or permanent, not there when i got in) what does that say! Smiley

Also just saw a notice in my mailbox about a meeting on 14th about presentation of survey results...
  
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