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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New village north of Chianti in the works (Read 24753 times)
garmato
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New village north of Chianti in the works
May 16th, 2017 at 10:13pm
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Documents:
http://www.discoverybayforum.com/cgi-bin/yabb2611/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1494693211#8

The developer is not transparent and will not inform residents of their plans despite creating a website ( http://dbdevelopment.hk ). The website only posts information afterwards but never about ongoing or future developments.

Looks like 1,791 housing units will be built north of Chianti spanning an area of 157,100 sqm.

The roads have already been paved in preparation for development.

Seeing the pattern of how the developments are timed. I would guess it will start this time 2018.






  
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #1 - May 17th, 2017 at 1:15pm
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i don't understand how it can be legal to make such large scale development which impact the neighbor yet it is not mandatory to inform the details.. yes I like HK.. yes I live in DB and Chianti.. but ...
  
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garmato
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #2 - May 19th, 2017 at 8:16am
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I noticed I made a bit of a mistake with the borders in the satellite map. It should extend south to contain Amalfi and the new development near the funicular lift.

Well, DB is technically a private development. They don't have to answer to anyone except the government. They will develop whatever they feel is good for DB in terms of the return on investment. They're not going to build something that doesn't make them money.


  
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HK1980
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #3 - May 22nd, 2017 at 6:43am
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As I understood it, this development would use up the remainder of their plot ratio for DB as it currently stands.

It has been a prepped building site since I moved to DB in 2008 and I think the small mercy is that the foundation works are already complete.

I'm surprised it has taken so long to be honest!

In 2012 a property agent from Centaline tried to convince us that a Chianti unit we were looking to buy was not actually facing a future building site Roll Eyes

We opted for somewhere else instead!
  
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garmato
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #4 - May 22nd, 2017 at 7:13am
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(2006) Phase 13 = Chianti (545 units)
(2011) Phase 14 = Amalfi (164 units)
(2011) Phase 15 = Positano (102 units)
(2017) Phase 16 = "N1d" (196 units)

So that's at least three new developments since Chianti.

Yang Dandan is a warning to others that realtors will play word games to seal a deal. She bought the top floor unit in Chianti in 2007 for $17.2 million (1,667 sq ft) on the basis she would have an unobstructed sea view. Amalfi was built and opened 4 years later blocking her view and also caused her property's value to drop.

"In any truly democratic and lawful country it would never happen that someone can be allowed to use word games to talk consumers into making purchasing decisions."

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-crime/article/1863587/discovery-bay-flat-...

  
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MCC
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #5 - May 23rd, 2017 at 1:23am
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Whereas I do not quite understand the connection to political democracy, Hong Kong has never been one!!! The British ruled "non democratic" and left us with no democracy; that's how it still is and probably will be, for a long time.
  
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HK1980
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #6 - May 24th, 2017 at 3:14am
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MCC wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 1:23am:
Whereas I do not quite understand the connection to political democracy, Hong Kong has never been one!!! The British ruled "non democratic" and left us with no democracy; that's how it still is and probably will be, for a long time.


I suggest you educate yourself on the 1994 electoral reform and how it was dismantled on the first day of Chinese Rule in HK.

But I agree that the link to property rights is tenuous.
  
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Ger
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #7 - May 24th, 2017 at 3:48am
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HK1980 - I was going to write along same lines.  There are too many who claim to have lived here for years - and that means they know it all - yet they haven't a clue about what goes on.  I have grown weary of replying to them, frankly.  If some newcomer says they don't understand then that's another matter.
  
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HK1980
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #8 - May 24th, 2017 at 4:31am
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There is only a small difference between people's actual or willful ignorance.

But you can only hope to do something about the the former  Grin
  
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MCC
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #9 - May 24th, 2017 at 4:49am
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My sincere apologies for my poor education!!! What is is called if someone believes that an electoral reform made by British occupants (ruling in an undemocratic way for 150 years and planned to take effect after they hand over power to a communist country) would be even worth the paper that it written on? How do you call someone who believed this reform would ever happen?
  
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HK1980
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #10 - May 24th, 2017 at 7:20am
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It didn't take effect after, it took effect prior to the handover.
1995.

So I would call someone who thought it would happen 'historically informed'.
  
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MCC
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #11 - May 24th, 2017 at 9:41am
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Sorry for yet another uneducated blunder. I always thought the British quickly (and in an undemocratic, top down manner) introduced democratic steps to be in place for the time after the handover (i.e. a time that was no longer their business); how wrong could I be. I also thought the Chinese government strictly opposed to these reforms all along... as they believed it broke with the agreements made in the Joint Declaration.

Help me now, I got 2 more questions:
1.) Which British Governor of Hong Kong was directly elected by the Hong Kong people?
2.) Which of these electoral reforms were dismantled by the Chinese (the free elections for the District Boards, Urban or Regional Councils or the Legislative Council)?

I always thought the whole fuzz about democracy was about directly electing the CE, something that the British strongly and explicitly rejected (the CE being the Governor at that time)...

"historically informed" sounds great though, a direct translation from "I still believe in Santa Clause"...
« Last Edit: May 25th, 2017 at 12:38am by MCC »  
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HK1980
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #12 - May 25th, 2017 at 2:34am
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You are invoking a straw man argument.
Which is defined as 'Creating the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition'

So let me deal with your original statement "The British ruled "non democratic" and left us with no democracy".

Which not the case, please read here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Hong_Kong_electoral_reform

Now, the common retort is that Britain should have done much more much earlier.
I totally agree with that position!

You correctly point out that China was staunchly against any reform, and the passage of the 1994 electoral reform caused such furor in the politburo that they called Patten a "Sinner of a thousand years" for tying to introduce even these meagre measures.
Against that backdrop, and the negotiations that had been going on since 1982, how really could more have been done? Well, I still think more should have been done...however difficult.

And what was dismantled after the handover?

Well, the entire elected body!
Replaced with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Legislative_Council.

I am not Pro-British, by the way, but I take issue with fudging of historical fact.
  
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MCC
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #13 - May 25th, 2017 at 2:58am
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Apologies for hijacking the thread; but it's getting interesting... "historical facts", as in "alternative facts"!?  Cheesy

Another (slightly older) fact from the same source:
"In 1841, Elliot negotiated with Lin's successor, Qishan, in the Convention of Chuenpi during the First Opium War. On 20 January, Elliot announced "the conclusion of preliminary arrangements", which included the cession of Hong Kong Island and its harbour to the British Crown". (Eliot at that time was some 6,000 miles away from great Britain).

So between 1841 and 1994 it was a British colony with zero democracy (for Hong Kong people). And the electoral reforms of 1994 were introduced because the British were such great democrats and for the good of Hong Kong people??? The same "good" that was denied to the Hong Kong people for some 150 years???

Looks like this is not about historical facts but the interpretation of these facts and the naive thinking of some (that China would even consider honoring the "democratic changes" introduced just a few years before the handover; and made obviously solely for the good of the British conscience after the handover)...

...and by the way, I thought that the elections introduced by the British were still being held today...
  
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HK1980
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #14 - May 25th, 2017 at 5:31am
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"I thought that the elections introduced by the British were still being held today"

No, again wrong.
Current elections are held on a proportional representation method today, not the first past the post system put forward in '94.
The current HK system has more in common with the UK pre 1832 reform system of 'rotten boroughs'.
It was the provisional legislature that implemented the proportional representation system.

"So between 1841 and 1994 it was a British colony with zero democracy"

No, the first buds of democracy in HK started with the 1985 Hong Kong Electoral Reforms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Hong_Kong_electoral_reforms.

But the context of democracy in HK probably saw its first hope as far back as the 50s. Here is an interesting paragraph on the subject.

"Recent declassified records showed there were discussions in 1958 between British and Hong Kong governments to allow Hong Kong to be self-governed. These discussions had been related to the British expulsion from India and growing anti-colonial sentiment in the remaining Crown Colonies. However, Zhou Enlai, representing the Communist Party of China at the time, warned that this "conspiracy" of self-governance would be a "very unfriendly act" and that the Communist Party wished the present colonial status of Hong Kong to continue. China was facing increasing isolation from the cold war, and having Hong Kong as a way to contact and trade with the outside world was to the party's benefit. Decolonization would cut off Hong Kong's ties with Britain and close a gateway China has with the rest of the western world."

Choose what you like to take away from all this MCC, but I am fairly confident that you know more about that subject now...when compared to 48hrs ago and that is only a good thing.

If you doubt my sources and wish to go out and learn more on your own, that it also a good thing.
But don't come barrelling in here with no knowledge on the subject, but spouting.
  
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #15 - May 25th, 2017 at 5:49am
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HK1980, by any chance are you a university professor?

  
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MCC
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #16 - May 25th, 2017 at 5:52am
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HK1980: Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

BH: God protect the students!
  
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MCC
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #17 - May 25th, 2017 at 5:59am
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HK1980, though.... using your link...

"Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name"..." If a page was recently created here, it may not be visible yet because of a delay in updating the database; wait a few minutes or try the purge function."

looks like you are still working on your wiki "source"  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  
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HK1980
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #18 - May 25th, 2017 at 8:57am
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BH-No

MCC-
Sorry bad link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Hong_Kong_electoral_reform

As the thread has decended to using emojis as a comeback.
I think I can assume the debate has been concluded.
  
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MCC
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #19 - May 25th, 2017 at 9:28am
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apologies for the uneducated emojis; couldn't find a better way to express my laughter. I used so many as I laughed really loud and really long. You are really funny!
  
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Ger
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #20 - May 25th, 2017 at 10:13am
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MCC wrote on May 25th, 2017 at 9:28am:
You are really funny!

HK1980 - sum total of knowledge gleaned.  Pearls before swine  Grin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearls_before_swine
  
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #21 - May 25th, 2017 at 11:50pm
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wow- the holy bible... this place has always been full of intellectual brilliance... and now we are getting holy... careful guys, we pigs don't know how to deal with this... we should be more grateful though, now, that the sum of all wiki knowledge AND God's wisdom has been shared with us...
  
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HK1980
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #22 - May 26th, 2017 at 2:00am
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Perhaps there are reasources that you would like to invoke to defend whatever point it is that you are trying to make.

Or you can just stick to emojis...

I'm done with the Pigeon Chess.
  
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #23 - May 26th, 2017 at 4:19am
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My point is: You may have a lot of knowledge (of good websites) but you do not know what to do with it, as you still believe in Santa Clause!
  
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #24 - May 27th, 2017 at 2:01am
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@HK1980 - nothing you can do with a troll other than to ignore
  
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garmato
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #25 - May 28th, 2017 at 4:56pm
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I think MCC and HK1980 are both right, just different usage of "democracy". MCC uses it in the strict sense of electing a leader. HK1980 uses a looser sense of electing representatives to government.

I don't think Hong Kong will ever get the democracy it's demanding. China has to ensure whoever is Chief Executive must be cooperative and on Beijing's side. Hong Kong has failed miserably by demonstrating to China it can't be entrusted with such democracy.
  
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HK1980
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #26 - May 29th, 2017 at 1:52am
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garmato wrote on May 28th, 2017 at 4:56pm:
Hong Kong has failed miserably by demonstrating to China it can't be entrusted with such democracy.


You mean, because HK would be unlikely to vote for a dicatorship...we failed the loyalty test.

There is no such thing as people who dont deserve democracy.
What and who they elect will be the decider of reward or indeed punishment. Nobody gets to say, nah, don't let those people have a say!
  
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Otis The Tramp
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #27 - May 29th, 2017 at 3:55am
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This has been a fascinating discussion, worthy of its own thread.

But getting back to the topic, the people of Discovery Bay would benefit massively from a little local democracy.

In a normal modern society, a town of 20,000 would be administered by a council elected by the townspeople. Decisions over expansion of the town, investments in infrastructure, transport, housing, recreation, education etc would be made transparently by the elected officials, who would have to engage the citizens throughout the process.

Unfortunately Discovery Bay is not a normal society by any measure, and its management, which is answerable only to a Chinese state-owned company, is anything but democratic or transparent.

Hey, but it's a lovely day outside!
  
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #28 - May 29th, 2017 at 5:56am
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I snapped these from the city planning museum way back in 2006. An indication of the development behind Chianti is already there.

http://imgur.com/a/cuAGp
  
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #29 - May 29th, 2017 at 11:01am
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HK1980, agree.

Otis, yes, it's a good food for thought topic. It's too bad that information is not easily accessible to residents/public online. And the website is not good enough.

parkvaledevelopment, thanks for sharing. I wonder what year that model is based upon. DBIS extension is not shown and it has ferry pier in the north with some structures that don't exist or differ from present. Amalfi is different.

The three bodies of water look like they'll be ponds similar to Central Park in Siena village. The land could be better used for outdoor recreation. Put some public basketball courts, dog park, children's playgrounds, water park, swimming pool, skate park, pagoda area, area for community bazaar.



  
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Ger
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #30 - May 29th, 2017 at 10:25pm
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One problem, as I see it, with such an increase in population are the logistics of getting everyone in and out of DB without - or even with - cars.  Some buses are already packed to the gills.
  
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #31 - May 30th, 2017 at 4:56pm
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Pure speculation here, but would the current traffic restrictions prevent DB from building a car park under the new village?

I can imagine private cars being allowed to pass through the tunnel and into the underground space just before the DB North tunnel. There could be an argument that those cars aren't actually entering Discovery Bay, and that argument would add a very big premium to the value of flats in the new village.
  
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HK1980
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #32 - May 31st, 2017 at 2:29am
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At least one of those "bodies of water" will be a private pool, I would imagine.

Because area N1 wont have the best of the sea view, my bet would be that it will be facility heavy in order to justify what they will want to charge for it.

Thinking private gym, clubhouse, pool/s.
  
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #33 - May 31st, 2017 at 4:54am
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Underground car park (for optimists)
  
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #34 - May 31st, 2017 at 6:21am
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Ger wrote on May 31st, 2017 at 4:54am:
Underground car park (for optimists)


That wasn't meant to sound optimistic - I have no wish to see private cars nudging their way into Discovery Bay.
  
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Re: New village north of Chianti in the works
Reply #35 - May 31st, 2017 at 7:46am
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Nor I.  That was meant to be a suggestion for a marketing ploy.  Property buyers in HK are so crazy that if you included a car park, there are those who would buy in the hope that cars will come.
  
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